So this Asher Roth thing has been debated for a minute and I wasn't really planning on taking it up, simply because the "white rapper" debate has seemed stale for the better part of the last 15 years now. But Roth's interview with The Wall St. Journal last month is telling for what hasn't been said in this most recent round of debates about white rappers. That is, that there’s a difference between a white rapper and a rapper who’s white. 
Roth comes out in the interview saying, “Unlike Eminem, I'm classic white. I'm talking about yoga and yogurt covered in fruit. I represent more of a suburban middle-class lifestyle.” Roth is contrasted with an artist like Eminem for good reason, but could also be compared to someone like Bubba Sparxxx. Eminem may have a largely white fan base, but he can make songs like “White America” precisely because his image represents in many ways a threat to traditional white identity under white supremacy in this country. It’s partly the street element he has to his persona, it’s partly the working class experience that fills out his lyrics, it’s partly his own association with people of color in hip-hop, that had so many media hacks, politicians and middle class parents scurrying to keep their white children from Eminem’s mischievous influence. While Eminem could potentially encourage white youth to identify with people of color, Asher Roth hardly presents that same threat if what he raps about only speaks to the experiences of white middle class suburban youth.
Bubba Sparxxx or Paul Wall is the type of artist that even go beyond Eminem. There was hardly any debate about them being “white rappers” precisely because nobody mistook them for white, in the political or social sense of the label. In fact, most white people didn’t even pay them any mind nor make up the majority of their fan base.
Some of the blog posts I’ve seen criticizing Asher Roth (see an assortment here) don't take up this dynamic, focusing instead on connecting him to all the other “white rappers” that appropriate and exploit black music. That’s too simplistic an explanation. Whether we like it or not, hip-hop is broad enough and has generalized across society (and the globe) in such a way that there will inevitably continue to be people like Roth or Slug or others who are white rappers doing the college kid, suburban hip-hop thing. But what’s relevant and more compelling is looking at how some artists take hip-hop a step further toward breaking down conventional racial identities and open the door for white folks who don't identify as white to instead identify with the social and political struggles and experiences of people of color, on terms defined by the latter.
Here is the WSJ interview from last month.
Just Asking… Asher Roth
By JOHN JURGENSEN
By rhyming about his suburban roots, Asher Roth has carved out a niche for himself in rap music and scored a hit with the song "I Love College." We spoke to the 23-year-old rapper about rejected stage names, why he left college and his strategy for answering questions about another white rapper, Eminem.
The Wall Street Journal: At a recent listening party for "Asleep in the Bread Aisle," you introduced your album saying it was bringing together people from all walks of life. Is that something that's missing from rap music?
Asher Roth: Especially now. Originally, the whole thing was about uplifting and enlightening people and having a party. When it became all about selling records, it really got tainted.
Asher Roth performs at the 2008 mtvU Woodie Awards in New York City.
WSJ: How exactly are you bringing people together?
Mr. Roth: It's hip-hop music, so it's not like we're out there holding hands. But it's forcing people to talk and get a lot of things off their chest. Unlike Eminem, I'm classic white. I'm talking about yoga and yogurt covered in fruit. I represent more of a suburban middle-class lifestyle. If we can start in hip hop and accept people for who they are and what they're talking about, rather than the color of their skin, we can turn it into a global thing. Hip hop is a beautiful place for asking more questions.
WSJ: For years people have been saying that the majority of rap fans are people like you -- white kids from the suburbs. If that's the case, why have there been so few to break out?
Mr. Roth: Besides the white guys who sell it and push it, hip hop is black music. But it got to the point where they were targeting us, the white people in the 'burbs. We got brought up on it, but suddenly when a 23-year-old white kid who's been inspired by Jay-Z starts rapping, it's a bad thing? C'mon, those [rappers] were talking to us the whole time. It's interesting to see what this is turning into. I was just this punk kid rapping to the laptop in my sophomore year in college. That's what hip-hop has turned into.
WSJ: At what point did you feel like you had become a professional rapper? What was the first major test of your skills?
Mr. Roth: The first time that I feel like I really passed a test was when I was on [influential DJ] Drama's radio show freestyling. People put a lot of stock in freestyling -- they've all seen the movie "8 Mile" -- but it's really hit or miss. Sometimes your brain isn't working, and I can be a pretty anxious kid. I don't like to have a verse ready in the back of my head, but on the show people were laughing and enjoying themselves, and I was like, damn, freestyling is easy when you're not too worried about it. I had another obstacle on [BBC DJ] Tim Westwood's show when he was playing a bunch of Eminem beats for me to rap over.
WSJ: On your album, you address comparisons to Eminem with the song "As I Em." Why did you write that song?
Mr. Roth: It's a bummer that that's the song everyone's going to be talking about. But I was never going to be able to ignore it. I can't comment on someone I've never met in my life, but in every interview I get asked about him. It came to a point where my album was done, but it felt like something was missing.
I'd been given that beat. It's one of the only songs on the album with a sample. It's a Joe Jackson sample [from the song "Geraldine and John"]. I was with my boy, hanging out in the Honda Civic, and I'm going through the CD cases and that one was right next to an Eminem CD. There's stuff like that that goes down in life, and you know it has to happen. So the song is the story of my relationship with Em. Now, when I get asked, I can say, "Refer to song 8. Conversation over."
WSJ: After you signed your recording contract in 2007, you spent a few months in Atlanta, writing and honing your skills. Can you set the scene?
Mr. Roth: We darted down there -- to a neighborhood with a bunch of newlyweds with their dogs -- and there was our ratty house with me and three of my homies from school. In the basement we put up a wall and a microphone and we hung out there and drank Trader Joe's wine and Miller Lite, and that's how we honed the craft. I wasn't making music with Big Daddy Kane and KRS One. I was just hanging out with my friends, kicking around ideas.
WSJ: Did you ever experiment with stage names other than your own?
Mr. Roth: When I was 16 and 17, it was like, what are you going to put on a CD? For a while it was Renaissance. Or AKA, like "also known as," because I couldn't come up with anything else. Or Grade A, like the eggs. Or Young Ash -- throw a "young" in your name and you're good.
WSJ: You perform with a band. Why did you go from rapping over tracks to working with a live sound?
Mr. Roth: I knew I wanted to have a live element. I was never interested in just watching a guy on stage rap about how great he is. I'm not the first -- the Roots really inspired me for that very reason. I've played with a full band a few times, but for the most part I perform with a live drummer and a DJ -- that's what I come from. I used to play drums until my dad made me practice with the practice pads on; then I was done.
WSJ: Did anyone encourage you to keep rapping when you were in high school or college?
Mr. Roth: My parents weren't like, "Pursue a rap career! Drop out of school!" But at the same time they didn't discourage me. It was more like, "Are you coming home for dinner?" Nobody is going to push me more than I will myself.
WSJ: How did your parents feel when you told them you were dropping out of college?
Mr. Roth: It came at a good time. I was in school just to be in school. My grades were dropping and it was so obvious that I really didn't care. My dad was helping with tuition, and he told me he wasn't going to waste his money. But it definitely wasn't success over night. I had moved to Atlanta after I signed the deal, and I was living on my advance, which disappeared quickly. I delivered pizzas. This wasn't the second coming of anything, but that whole process was very important for me
WSJ: What other kinds of music are you listening to?
Mr. Roth: Right now, and every day for the most part, I listen to a lot of [Bob] Marley. Especially in the morning, the vibe sets my day. On the planes, some James Brown. Today I was listening to Lykke Li and Pac Division. Some of their stuff is really dope.
Tuesday, May 12, 2009
White Rappers vs. Rappers Who Are White
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14 comments:
What the fuck is he talking about?? The dude's 23. When has hip-hop not been about selling records since he's been alive?
The conservative motherfuckers get younger and younger.
All on point, Krisna. Though I gotta say, Em's new stuff, so far, is a bit of a yawn-fest for me, he most definitely comes from and represents something a lot more potent and dangerous (in a good way) than Asher Roth does. To be honest, I find Roth irritating, and a lot of that has to do with the quiet pride in the middle class his lyrics carry. The dude raps about how much he loves college for fuck's sake! There are two people I know who love college the way Roth does: control-freak administrators and privileged frat-boys.
Anyway, enough of me on my soap-box. I remember being really pumped when Em came out, while a lot of elitists sneered at him. Then he came out with "White America" and put a lot of them in their place. Bubba and Paul arguably do the same, though I've never been much of a fan of their stuff.
Last point: is it funny to anyone else that this interview is from the Wall Street Journal? I know that artists have got to get publicity where they can, but it just seems too perfect a matchup for Roth here.
Agreed on Em's latest, though I haven't heard anything but the single.
It's okay to be irritated with Roth; I personally would like to kick him in the nuts, though I could care less about his latest neo-Imus hype. And definitely fitting that's he's featured in WSJ. Something I didn't think about.
Btw, this was L Ray's post so I can't take credit.
nice post. Roth is a total douche to me. I just can't relate to it at all. And as a rapper i feel he is painfully average. I have never understood all the crazy stirup that happens when a white rapper comes into the mainstream now days. You should check out the videos of him eating dinner with luda or sitting in the car with ceelo listening to music... i feel that it is real suspect on trying to give him some type of credentials through association. I would not be surprised at all if it came out later that the dude started rapping on a dare in college.
hold up, wait a minute. how do you throw Slug in with this chump?
Slug is not a revolutionary, and has a sizable alternative-white audience (as does every damn rapper making a dollar on the planet) . . . but he is a working-class kid from a multi-racial background who is exceptionally loyal to the community (in every sense of the word) he came out of.
so back it up, or take it back. jack.
love,
Minnepolis Baldie
Dear Jack,
Despite where Slug "comes from," I trust you would respect the timeless hip-hop maxim spawned from the great Rakim that "it ain't where you're from, it's where you're at." If you'll notice, we don't mention where Asher Roth "comes from" because we see that as irrelevant in the face of "where he's at" which is inevitably white and middle class. I don't mean that in an economistic way (what his parents did, where he went to school, etc.), but by his very ethos. Slug has similar cultural orientation, which at times can be as goofy and crass as parfaits and yoga (at other times introspective and quasi-political), but in taking in his music as a whole, including the folks who identify with his music, it isn't difficult to see the relationship between the two.
None of this is to dilute any existing distinction between them. That isn't the focus of the piece, however. I might agree with you about Slug's "alternative-white audience." I'm assuming you meant counter-cultural types and not the hipsters that Roth may have a tendency to attract. I'm not sure and think there's better artists with counter-cultural sensibilities to contrast Roth with. I personally don't think any of this makes Slug an illegitimate artist. I don't think an artist who talks about the streets (or comes from them) is any more valid than one who talks about shopping malls. In fact, characteristic of hip-hop is its growing universality. What might make one artist more "valid" than another is their ability to draw on the widest and deepest kinds of identities and struggles and convey their existence in the most dynamic way. I don't know; that's a conversation worth having.
But I can't say that you have exactly made much of a defense for the somewhat respected MC that Slug happens to be among layers of the hip-hop generation. What precisely are you saying about Slug AS AN ARTIST? That he isn't a revolutionary? That he's loyal? What does that even mean? Roth could be revolutionary in a sense. He can be loyal in a sense. You need to put some meat on that. Tell us why they are different.
On an unrelated note, do Anti-Racist Action members still refer to themselves as Baldies?
dialogue takes some effort. we have to find common language and overcome misunderstandings.
none the less you are the one who has asserted "Whether we like it or not, hip-hop is broad enough and has generalized across society (and the globe) in such a way that there will inevitably continue to be people like Roth or Slug or others who are white rappers doing the college kid, suburban hip-hop thing."
I challenge that, jack. Slug is not a college kid or a suburbanite, and does not write for them - at least not mainly. His main audience and source of inspiration is working-class Minneapolitans. In many ways the organic source of his creativity is the same community that Prince drew on 20 or 30 years earlier - the multi-racial southside city kids (workers & hustlers) struggling for survival and human greatness.
You apparently think different - so back it up, professor.
when I spoke about slug, i did so in the present tense. I agree that "you are what you eat", but i never said differently. So your use of Rakim's "spawn"-ation is misdirected.
On a RELATED note, Anti-Racist Action members never referred to themselves as Baldies - unless they were also Baldies (ie members of one of the original anti-fascist skinhead crews in North America)
love,
K.
Misko,
I think the lines of demarcation are drawn here. You are giving Slug a more working class basis; I think that working class basis is somewhat overstated on your behalf. Asher Roth and Slug are different in a lot ways, but there's a general consistency that cannot be missed.
But if you're that vested in vindicating Slug's apparently slighted good name, provide whatever concrete information you'd like and I'll be happy to read it. I don't have hard evidence, just observation and experience listening to the music, participating in shows, and using a bit of intuition. Personally, I'm more interested in discussing why artists like Slug and Asher Roth (or whomever) exist.
FYI, I didn't write this piece, but I do agree with it. Just to clarify...
first - i like the site and appreciate discusssion. I didnt make that clear before.
second - i don't know slug personally, and am not interested in "vindicating his good name". for all i know he could be an asshole.
but i know the places and people he raps about - and they do not resemble Asher Roth's frat boy fantasies. its too bad to me that you all could confuse them. it shows lack of insight and smacks of arrogance.
the LBoogie piece says quite explicitly that Atmosphere is on the side of hiphop that reinforces whiteness (white supremacy) rather than breaks it down. twice now ive challenged that, asked you all to back that up. twice now youve taken shots at me insead of backing up your own arguments.
Are your assertions now accepted fact that the onus is on me to disprove? are you all so confident that the scribes have finished the engraving that you cannot back up your assertions with real argument?
Misko,
I apologize for taking so long to reply, but I've had to take some time to mull our discussion over.
I think what's obvious is that we've gotten off on the wrong foot and now this conversation has degenerated into details and sarcasm. I don't absolve myself from contributing to that, either, and I'm sorry for that.
Secondly, the last thing I want to be conveyed is that all positions or statements made on this blog are final. After contributing to it for three and a half years (and writing about hip-hop for three years before that), I can point to a multitude of things I've personally said that were either oversimplified or just plain wrong.
This blog is meant to be a forum for formulating a dynamic perspective on hip-hop, one that sees the political potentialities of the hip-hop generation, and yet one that engages with it through organizing. It also can't be much of a forum if we take sectarian attitudes towards others. I try not to be sectarian for the most part, but I've failed at it a few times. A lot of it has to do with the limitations (or challenges) of communicating over the Internet. We can't see face to face and are never quite sure of others' intentions. On the flip, some of it has been purely egotistical and egos don't clarify problems but muddle them. Hopefully, now, we can clear up some of the confusion that has been created.
I would like to quote part of your response above:
"the LBoogie piece says quite explicitly that Atmosphere is on the side of hiphop that reinforces whiteness (white supremacy) rather than breaks it down."
Not at all. Not only did the piece not say that, it actually challenged the typical arguments about Roth as representing yet another white rapper to appropriate black music. What was said was:
"Some of the blog posts I’ve seen criticizing Asher Roth don't take up this dynamic [of how particular white rappers relate differently with black folks - KB], focusing instead on connecting him to all the other “white rappers” that appropriate and exploit black music. That’s too simplistic an explanation. Whether we like it or not, hip-hop is broad enough and has generalized across society (and the globe) in such a way that there will inevitably continue to be people like Roth or Slug or others who are white rappers doing the college kid, suburban hip-hop thing."
While we wouldn't consider Slug an Em, a Paul Wall, or a Bubba Sparxxx, we aren't at all trying to imply that Slug reinforces white supremacy, either. The fundamental point is that hip-hop has grown to the extent that it doesn't represent one essential existence (a Southern, black American, working class existence). But what may have been oversimplified on our part is including Slug as part of the "college kid, suburban hip-hop thing." While I still stand behind my point about some continuity in themes between Slug and Roth, this statement clearly doesn't capture their distinctions. My basis for that is, as I stated above, listening to his music, comparing it with others, going to his shows and others who are a part of the Rhymesayers collective, paying attention to the folks who come out, talking with them, knowing them, finding what the appeal is, and making conclusions accordingly. That is the most I can do to "back it up." I trust that this is worthy enough experience to draw conclusions about Slug (as an artist). It definitely is not a scientific analysis, but I'm not sure one can be made anyhow.
At the same time, I haven't done exactly the same with Roth. My understanding of him is a bit more superficial, though I can confidently agree with you that he is a "chump." Additionally, your experience with Slug is every bit as valid as well. Perhaps this is a regional or local problem. In New Orleans, you can be queer rapper and not be seen as a novelty or part of a scene. Queer artists in New Orleans are deeply connected to the hip-hop generation of their city and their communities. But elsewhere, the relationship would be different. In Kansas City, Tech N9ne is a gangsta. In Detroit, he's a juggalo. In Oakland, he's hyphy (and definitely thug). My experience with Slug as a native of Kansas City is that his appeal is with backpackers, suburban kids, emo types, and even cult followers. My homegirl Nikki in KC follows Atmosphere from city to city like they're the fuckin Grateful Dead. If you looked at her, you'd think she listened to Marilyn Manson. But she loves her some Slug.
This opens up a larger question too, which I've wrestled with before, about the medium of circulation (to use an overly economistic term) of artists. Why does Murs circulate among backpackers and Keak among gangsters and yet Murs is every bit as thugged out as Keak? Its regional (local), its about association, its about the dynamism and contradictions of hip-hop.
I'm digressing, but this is a point worth making sense of (for all of us).
What I didn't do before but should have done is ask you, in your own experience, what is the relationship of Slug to his listeners in Minneapolis, what is the class and race content of his audience, what personal experiences with Slug's music inform your perspective? Some of this you've already communicated, but so that I may know better, feel free to elaborate. As I mentioned above, there isn't a singular working class experience, so what makes Slug unique in this respect?
I hope this helps clarify my position and smooths over any rough spots we've hit. Look forward to your perspective.
~Rebel
OK, cool. Lets build.
If I read the esay wrong then its on me. But maybe its because I actually agree with the premise of "White Rappers vs. Rappers Who Are White". And this Asher dude seems like a poster child for the capital W.
Slug and his rapping aint capital W. and even though i dont know him personally i know him. hes from my city probably only one or two scenes removed. hes of the same "age set" as Stokely would say. We know alot of the same people and all the same geography.
6 years ago when I came back to Minneapolis from 7 years abroad in Chi & Detroit I was driving for UPS in the morning and at Airborne Express in the evening. UPS had a union but Airborne had a radio. I got fired from UPS around Xmas which caused me and my family alot of stress and caused me to question the move back north. One night as I pulled up to some empty office park to scoop up their important deliveries, "Always Coming Back Home to You" came on the radio and reminded me of why i love my city and the people in it. it tasted real. and to have someone acknowledge your real, even uphold it on the radio can be a moving thing.
I wont say a lot more except that Slug hustled in a particularly collective way to "get where hes at" and allows himself to be accountable to the scene that he came out of - and I gotta emphasize it is a scene (many, many overlapping people and projects) and it is multi-racial. It strikes me as having alot of social similarities to the Minneapolis Sound of the previous geniuses (if you havent watched purple rain lately check out how damn interracial it is). but instead of being dominated by a universal music god as that scene went, slug just holds court as the bar-fly poet of rhymesayers.
I think i know what you mean about Eminem and Bubba Sparxxx (i dont really know Paul wall, maybe seen one of his videos) but those guys strike me as isolated - do they have a neighborhood anymore? who are they accountable to? who keeps them real?
and this asher fella, hes just on a different side of the fence.
Clearly Slug has a much deeper and more organic relationship with Minneapolis than elsewhere. That's all good information.
"who are they accountable to? who keeps them real?"
These questions are good. I don't necessarily think that folks need a neighborhood or city to keep them accountable. I think we can imagine larger regional, national, or international communities that can do that. But the question still remains as to what keeps artists free from isolation and linked to the larger communities they represent. It's stuff we need to think about.
This makes me think of Master P, who throughout the late 1990s and early 2000s led the way out of the mutual decline of the East and West coasts. Despite his national success, he was still New Orleans in every breath he breathed. But he was unable to foresee the changes in hip-hop to follow and subsequently began opposing newer artists who represented a new generation and ethos (much of which was consistent with his original). His new conservative perspective ensured he became as marginal as he was when he began, but this time without even a local base.
Master P opposed the gangsta ethos from the right. Had he tried to glean a basis for something different from the positive aspects of the gangsta ethos while negating the rest, he might have not have become the joke that he is today.
Why didn't you tell me who you were, Misko! Guess I should have paid closer attention. We've never met, but we have mutual friends, MS and AL. LBoogie says she's met you, but you may not remember.
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